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Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind the NSA surveillanc

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Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind the NSA surveillanc

by admin_pornrev » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:16 pm

Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind the NSA surveillance revelations
FROM: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... rveillance

The 29-year-old source behind the biggest intelligence leak in the NSA's history explains his motives, his uncertain future and why he never intended on hiding in the shadows

• Q&A with NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I do not expect to see home again'
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• Glenn Greenwald, Ewen MacAskill and Laura Poitras in Hong Kong
• guardian.co.uk, Monday 10 June 2013 06.17 AEST
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Link to video: NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things'
The individual responsible for one of the most significant leaks in US political history is Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA and current employee of the defence contractor Booz Allen Hamilton. Snowden has been working at the National Security Agency for the last four years as an employee of various outside contractors, including Booz Allen and Dell.
The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.
Snowden will go down in history as one of America's most consequential whistleblowers, alongside Daniel Ellsberg and Bradley Manning. He is responsible for handing over material from one of the world's most secretive organisations – the NSA.
In a note accompanying the first set of documents he provided, he wrote: "I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," but "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant."
Despite his determination to be publicly unveiled, he repeatedly insisted that he wants to avoid the media spotlight. "I don't want public attention because I don't want the story to be about me. I want it to be about what the US government is doing."
He does not fear the consequences of going public, he said, only that doing so will distract attention from the issues raised by his disclosures. "I know the media likes to personalise political debates, and I know the government will demonise me."
Despite these fears, he remained hopeful his outing will not divert attention from the substance of his disclosures. "I really want the focus to be on these documents and the debate which I hope this will trigger among citizens around the globe about what kind of world we want to live in." He added: "My sole motive is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them."
He has had "a very comfortable life" that included a salary of roughly $200,000, a girlfriend with whom he shared a home in Hawaii, a stable career, and a family he loves. "I'm willing to sacrifice all of that because I can't in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they're secretly building."
'I am not afraid, because this is the choice I've made'
Three weeks ago, Snowden made final preparations that resulted in last week's series of blockbuster news stories. At the NSA office in Hawaii where he was working, he copied the last set of documents he intended to disclose.
He then advised his NSA supervisor that he needed to be away from work for "a couple of weeks" in order to receive treatment for epilepsy, a condition he learned he suffers from after a series of seizures last year.
As he packed his bags, he told his girlfriend that he had to be away for a few weeks, though he said he was vague about the reason. "That is not an uncommon occurrence for someone who has spent the last decade working in the intelligence world."
On May 20, he boarded a flight to Hong Kong, where he has remained ever since. He chose the city because "they have a spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent", and because he believed that it was one of the few places in the world that both could and would resist the dictates of the US government.
In the three weeks since he arrived, he has been ensconced in a hotel room. "I've left the room maybe a total of three times during my entire stay," he said. It is a plush hotel and, what with eating meals in his room too, he has run up big bills.
He is deeply worried about being spied on. He lines the door of his hotel room with pillows to prevent eavesdropping. He puts a large red hood over his head and laptop when entering his passwords to prevent any hidden cameras from detecting them.
Though that may sound like paranoia to some, Snowden has good reason for such fears. He worked in the US intelligence world for almost a decade. He knows that the biggest and most secretive surveillance organisation in America, the NSA, along with the most powerful government on the planet, is looking for him.
Since the disclosures began to emerge, he has watched television and monitored the internet, hearing all the threats and vows of prosecution emanating from Washington.
And he knows only too well the sophisticated technology available to them and how easy it will be for them to find him. The NSA police and other law enforcement officers have twice visited his home in Hawaii and already contacted his girlfriend, though he believes that may have been prompted by his absence from work, and not because of suspicions of any connection to the leaks.
"All my options are bad," he said. The US could begin extradition proceedings against him, a potentially problematic, lengthy and unpredictable course for Washington. Or the Chinese government might whisk him away for questioning, viewing him as a useful source of information. Or he might end up being grabbed and bundled into a plane bound for US territory.
"Yes, I could be rendered by the CIA. I could have people come after me. Or any of the third-party partners. They work closely with a number of other nations. Or they could pay off the Triads. Any of their agents or assets," he said.
"We have got a CIA station just up the road – the consulate here in Hong Kong – and I am sure they are going to be busy for the next week. And that is a concern I will live with for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be."
Having watched the Obama administration prosecute whistleblowers at a historically unprecedented rate, he fully expects the US government to attempt to use all its weight to punish him. "I am not afraid," he said calmly, "because this is the choice I've made."
He predicts the government will launch an investigation and "say I have broken the Espionage Act and helped our enemies, but that can be used against anyone who points out how massive and invasive the system has become".
The only time he became emotional during the many hours of interviews was when he pondered the impact his choices would have on his family, many of whom work for the US government. "The only thing I fear is the harmful effects on my family, who I won't be able to help any more. That's what keeps me up at night," he said, his eyes welling up with tears.
'You can't wait around for someone else to act'
Snowden did not always believe the US government posed a threat to his political values. He was brought up originally in Elizabeth City, North Carolina. His family moved later to Maryland, near the NSA headquarters in Fort Meade.
By his own admission, he was not a stellar student. In order to get the credits necessary to obtain a high school diploma, he attended a community college in Maryland, studying computing, but never completed the coursework. (He later obtained his GED.)
In 2003, he enlisted in the US army and began a training program to join the Special Forces. Invoking the same principles that he now cites to justify his leaks, he said: "I wanted to fight in the Iraq war because I felt like I had an obligation as a human being to help free people from oppression".
He recounted how his beliefs about the war's purpose were quickly dispelled. "Most of the people training us seemed pumped up about killing Arabs, not helping anyone," he said. After he broke both his legs in a training accident, he was discharged.
After that, he got his first job in an NSA facility, working as a security guard for one of the agency's covert facilities at the University of Maryland. From there, he went to the CIA, where he worked on IT security. His understanding of the internet and his talent for computer programming enabled him to rise fairly quickly for someone who lacked even a high school diploma.
By 2007, the CIA stationed him with diplomatic cover in Geneva, Switzerland. His responsibility for maintaining computer network security meant he had clearance to access a wide array of classified documents.
That access, along with the almost three years he spent around CIA officers, led him to begin seriously questioning the rightness of what he saw.
He described as formative an incident in which he claimed CIA operatives were attempting to recruit a Swiss banker to obtain secret banking information. Snowden said they achieved this by purposely getting the banker drunk and encouraging him to drive home in his car. When the banker was arrested for drunk driving, the undercover agent seeking to befriend him offered to help, and a bond was formed that led to successful recruitment.
"Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world," he says. "I realised that I was part of something that was doing far more harm than good."
He said it was during his CIA stint in Geneva that he thought for the first time about exposing government secrets. But, at the time, he chose not to for two reasons.
First, he said: "Most of the secrets the CIA has are about people, not machines and systems, so I didn't feel comfortable with disclosures that I thought could endanger anyone". Secondly, the election of Barack Obama in 2008 gave him hope that there would be real reforms, rendering disclosures unnecessary.
He left the CIA in 2009 in order to take his first job working for a private contractor that assigned him to a functioning NSA facility, stationed on a military base in Japan. It was then, he said, that he "watched as Obama advanced the very policies that I thought would be reined in", and as a result, "I got hardened."
The primary lesson from this experience was that "you can't wait around for someone else to act. I had been looking for leaders, but I realised that leadership is about being the first to act."
Over the next three years, he learned just how all-consuming the NSA's surveillance activities were, claiming "they are intent on making every conversation and every form of behaviour in the world known to them".
He described how he once viewed the internet as "the most important invention in all of human history". As an adolescent, he spent days at a time "speaking to people with all sorts of views that I would never have encountered on my own".
But he believed that the value of the internet, along with basic privacy, is being rapidly destroyed by ubiquitous surveillance. "I don't see myself as a hero," he said, "because what I'm doing is self-interested: I don't want to live in a world where there's no privacy and therefore no room for intellectual exploration and creativity."
Once he reached the conclusion that the NSA's surveillance net would soon be irrevocable, he said it was just a matter of time before he chose to act. "What they're doing" poses "an existential threat to democracy", he said.
A matter of principle
As strong as those beliefs are, there still remains the question: why did he do it? Giving up his freedom and a privileged lifestyle? "There are more important things than money. If I were motivated by money, I could have sold these documents to any number of countries and gotten very rich."
For him, it is a matter of principle. "The government has granted itself power it is not entitled to. There is no public oversight. The result is people like myself have the latitude to go further than they are allowed to," he said.
His allegiance to internet freedom is reflected in the stickers on his laptop: "I support Online Rights: Electronic Frontier Foundation," reads one. Another hails the online organisation offering anonymity, the Tor Project.
Asked by reporters to establish his authenticity to ensure he is not some fantasist, he laid bare, without hesitation, his personal details, from his social security number to his CIA ID and his expired diplomatic passport. There is no shiftiness. Ask him about anything in his personal life and he will answer.
He is quiet, smart, easy-going and self-effacing. A master on computers, he seemed happiest when talking about the technical side of surveillance, at a level of detail comprehensible probably only to fellow communication specialists. But he showed intense passion when talking about the value of privacy and how he felt it was being steadily eroded by the behaviour of the intelligence services.
His manner was calm and relaxed but he has been understandably twitchy since he went into hiding, waiting for the knock on the hotel door. A fire alarm goes off. "That has not happened before," he said, betraying anxiety wondering if was real, a test or a CIA ploy to get him out onto the street.
Strewn about the side of his bed are his suitcase, a plate with the remains of room-service breakfast, and a copy of Angler, the biography of former vice-president Dick Cheney.
Ever since last week's news stories began to appear in the Guardian, Snowden has vigilantly watched TV and read the internet to see the effects of his choices. He seemed satisfied that the debate he longed to provoke was finally taking place.
He lay, propped up against pillows, watching CNN's Wolf Blitzer ask a discussion panel about government intrusion if they had any idea who the leaker was. From 8,000 miles away, the leaker looked on impassively, not even indulging in a wry smile.
Snowden said that he admires both Ellsberg and Manning, but argues that there is one important distinction between himself and the army private, whose trial coincidentally began the week Snowden's leaks began to make news.
"I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest," he said. "There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over, because harming people isn't my goal. Transparency is."
He purposely chose, he said, to give the documents to journalists whose judgment he trusted about what should be public and what should remain concealed.
As for his future, he is vague. He hoped the publicity the leaks have generated will offer him some protection, making it "harder for them to get dirty".
He views his best hope as the possibility of asylum, with Iceland – with its reputation of a champion of internet freedom – at the top of his list. He knows that may prove a wish unfulfilled.
But after the intense political controversy he has already created with just the first week's haul of stories, "I feel satisfied that this was all worth it. I have no regrets."
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NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I do not expect to see home again'
FROM: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... nowden-why

Source for the Guardian's NSA files on why he carried out the biggest intelligence leak in a generation – and what comes next
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• The Guardian, Sunday 9 June 2013
Link to video: NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things'
Edward Snowden was interviewed over several days in Hong Kong by Glenn Greenwald and Ewen MacAskill.
Q: Why did you decide to become a whistleblower?
A: "The NSA has built an infrastructure that allows it to intercept almost everything. With this capability, the vast majority of human communications are automatically ingested without targeting. If I wanted to see your emails or your wife's phone, all I have to do is use intercepts. I can get your emails, passwords, phone records, credit cards.
"I don't want to live in a society that does these sort of things … I do not want to live in a world where everything I do and say is recorded. That is not something I am willing to support or live under."
Q: But isn't there a need for surveillance to try to reduce the chances of terrorist attacks such as Boston?
A: "We have to decide why terrorism is a new threat. There has always been terrorism. Boston was a criminal act. It was not about surveillance but good, old-fashioned police work. The police are very good at what they do."
Q: Do you see yourself as another Bradley Manning?
A: "Manning was a classic whistleblower. He was inspired by the public good."
Q: Do you think what you have done is a crime?
A: "We have seen enough criminality on the part of government. It is hypocritical to make this allegation against me. They have narrowed the public sphere of influence."
Q: What do you think is going to happen to you?
A: "Nothing good."
Q: Why Hong Kong?
A: "I think it is really tragic that an American has to move to a place that has a reputation for less freedom. Still, Hong Kong has a reputation for freedom in spite of the People's Republic of China. It has a strong tradition of free speech."
Q: What do the leaked documents reveal?
A: "That the NSA routinely lies in response to congressional inquiries about the scope of surveillance in America. I believe that when [senator Ron] Wyden and [senator Mark] Udall asked about the scale of this, they [the NSA] said it did not have the tools to provide an answer. We do have the tools and I have maps showing where people have been scrutinised most. We collect more digital communications from America than we do from the Russians."
Snowden is a 29-year-old former technical assistant for the CIA
Q: What about the Obama administration's protests about hacking by China?
A: "We hack everyone everywhere. We like to make a distinction between us and the others. But we are in almost every country in the world. We are not at war with these countries."
Q: Is it possible to put security in place to protect against state surveillance?
A: "You are not even aware of what is possible. The extent of their capabilities is horrifying. We can plant bugs in machines. Once you go on the network, I can identify your machine. You will never be safe whatever protections you put in place."
Q: Does your family know you are planning this?
A: "No. My family does not know what is happening … My primary fear is that they will come after my family, my friends, my partner. Anyone I have a relationship with …
I will have to live with that for the rest of my life. I am not going to be able to communicate with them. They [the authorities] will act aggressively against anyone who has known me. That keeps me up at night."
Q: When did you decide to leak the documents?
A: "You see things that may be disturbing. When you see everything you realise that some of these things are abusive. The awareness of wrong-doing builds up. There was not one morning when I woke up [and decided this is it]. It was a natural process.
"A lot of people in 2008 voted for Obama. I did not vote for him. I voted for a third party. But I believed in Obama's promises. I was going to disclose it [but waited because of his election]. He continued with the policies of his predecessor."
Q: What is your reaction to Obama denouncing the leaks on Friday while welcoming a debate on the balance between security and openness?
A: "My immediate reaction was he was having difficulty in defending it himself. He was trying to defend the unjustifiable and he knew it."
Q: What about the response in general to the disclosures?
A: "I have been surprised and pleased to see the public has reacted so strongly in defence of these rights that are being suppressed in the name of security. It is not like Occupy Wall Street but there is a grassroots movement to take to the streets on July 4 in defence of the Fourth Amendment called Restore The Fourth Amendment and it grew out of Reddit. The response over the internet has been huge and supportive."
Q: Washington-based foreign affairs analyst Steve Clemons said he overheard at the capital's Dulles airport four men discussing an intelligence conference they had just attended. Speaking about the leaks, one of them said, according to Clemons, that both the reporter and leaker should be "disappeared". How do you feel about that?
A: "Someone responding to the story said 'real spies do not speak like that'. Well, I am a spy and that is how they talk. Whenever we had a debate in the office on how to handle crimes, they do not defend due process – they defend decisive action. They say it is better to kick someone out of a plane than let these people have a day in court. It is an authoritarian mindset in general."
Q: Do you have a plan in place?
A: "The only thing I can do is sit here and hope the Hong Kong government does not deport me … My predisposition is to seek asylum in a country with shared values. The nation that most encompasses this is Iceland. They stood up for people over internet freedom. I have no idea what my future is going to be.
"They could put out an Interpol note. But I don't think I have committed a crime outside the domain of the US. I think it will be clearly shown to be political in nature."
Q: Do you think you are probably going to end up in prison?
A: "I could not do this without accepting the risk of prison. You can't come up against the world's most powerful intelligence agencies and not accept the risk. If they want to get you, over time they will."
Q: How to you feel now, almost a week after the first leak?
A: "I think the sense of outrage that has been expressed is justified. It has given me hope that, no matter what happens to me, the outcome will be positive for America. I do not expect to see home again, though that is what I want."

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Edward Snowden's choice of Hong Kong as haven is a high-stakes gamble
NSA whistleblower's calculations over Hong Kong likely rest on its relatively liberal culture and sovereignty of Beijing
• Booz Allen Hamilton: Edward Snowden's US contracting firm
• NSA Prism surveillance scandal downplayed by UK government
• Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance
• NSA secret surveillance: US lawmakers react – live updates
• US surveillance has 'expanded' under Obama, says Bush's NSA director
• NSA surveillance: lawmakers urge disclosure as Obama 'welcomes' debate
• Data snooping: law abiding citizens have 'nothing to fear', says Hague – video
• Prism: claims of GCHQ circumventing law are 'fanciful nonsense', says Hague
• Boundless Informant: the NSA's secret tool to track global surveillance data
• Obama defends internet surveillance programmes - video
• Obama deflects criticism over NSA surveillance as Democrats sound alarm
• Obama orders US to draw up overseas target list for cyber-attacks
• Ministers forced to reveal British link to US data spying scandal
• Google and Facebook insist they did not know of Prism surveillance program
• Clapper admits secret NSA surveillance programme to access user data
• NSA taps in to internet giants' systems to mine user data, secret files reveal
• Comment
•
Henry Porter: the west is moving towards China in its quest for mass surveillance
The future of our free society demands that we seek the truth from the government about internet snooping
• Glenn Greenwald: on whistleblowers and government threats of investigation
• John Naughton: should Google serve the state – or serve its customers?
• Jonathan Freedland: Obama is like Apple, Google and Facebook: a once hip brand tainted by Prism
• Analysis
•
The National Security Agency: surveillance giant with eyes on America
The NSA is the best hidden of all the US intelligence services – and its secrecy has deepened as its reach has expanded
• Q&A: what data is being monitored and how does it work?

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More news
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• More on this story
•
Edward Snowden's choice of Hong Kong as haven is a high-stakes gamble
NSA whistleblower's calculations over Hong Kong likely rest on its relatively liberal culture and sovereignty of Beijing
• Booz Allen Hamilton: Edward Snowden's US contracting firm
• NSA Prism surveillance scandal downplayed by UK government
• NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I do not expect to see home again'
• Live
NSA secret surveillance: US lawmakers react – live updates
• US surveillance has 'expanded' under Obama, says Bush's NSA director
• NSA surveillance: lawmakers urge disclosure as Obama 'welcomes' debate
• Data snooping: law abiding citizens have 'nothing to fear', says Hague – video
• Prism: claims of GCHQ circumventing law are 'fanciful nonsense', says Hague
• Boundless Informant: the NSA's secret tool to track global surveillance data
• Obama defends internet surveillance programmes - video
• Obama deflects criticism over NSA surveillance as Democrats sound alarm
• Obama orders US to draw up overseas target list for cyber-attacks
• Ministers forced to reveal British link to US data spying scandal
• Google and Facebook insist they did not know of Prism surveillance program
• Clapper admits secret NSA surveillance programme to access user data
• NSA taps in to internet giants' systems to mine user data, secret files reveal
• Comment
•
Henry Porter: the west is moving towards China in its quest for mass surveillance
The future of our free society demands that we seek the truth from the government about internet snooping
• Glenn Greenwald: on whistleblowers and government threats of investigation
• John Naughton: should Google serve the state – or serve its customers?
• Jonathan Freedland: Obama is like Apple, Google and Facebook: a once hip brand tainted by Prism
• Analysis
•
The National Security Agency: surveillance giant with eyes on America
The NSA is the best hidden of all the US intelligence services – and its secrecy has deepened as its reach has expanded
• Q&A: what data is being monitored and how does it work?
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• why1
09 June 2013 7:32pm

admin_pornrev: Site Admin; Posts: 832; Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind the NSA surveillanc

by admin_pornrev » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:18 pm

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Thank you!
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DogAlmightyM
09 June 2013 7:54pm
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COMMENTS

Whether you agree or not with this man exposing the NSA's secrets, one thing you can't argue is the American deserved to know about all the data being collected on them.
What this man has done is very courageous and the American people should be grateful to him.
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BonkIfYouHonk
09 June 2013 8:04pm
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@whyohwhy1 - thank you indeed, but I wonder how long the guardian will keep flogging this story? Three days and counting...
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Yosserian
09 June 2013 8:09pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk -
thank you indeed, but I wonder how long the guardian will keep flogging this story? Three days and counting...
Wow! Three whole days, you say! And the say people have short attention spans...
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geo423
09 June 2013 8:14pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - Is there anything of larger consequence that happened this weekend to replace it?
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RadicalLivre
09 June 2013 8:15pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk 09 June 2013 8:04pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
thank you indeed, but I wonder how long the guardian will keep flogging this story? Three days and counting...
Please tell me you were paid by the NSA to write that. Otherwise the renewed faith in humanity Edward Snowden has instilled in me will be shattered.
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GRSmith300
09 June 2013 8:25pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - I'd rather they 'flogged' this story than Thatcher's funeral.
Respect and thanks to Edward Snowden.
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DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 8:33pm
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@DogAlmightyM 09 June 2013 7:54pm.
I don't see this as a contradiction, but I am grateful for Snowden, appreciate what he has done, and even consider him to be a hero, while at the same time I am not grateful for Manning, I don't appreciate what he has done and I don't see him as anything even remotely resembling a hero.
I am glad that Snowden took up residence (if even in a hotel) in Hong Kong before coming out as the NSA whistleblower. I absolutely don't want to see him in jail, but also (as Snowden states himself), this issue is important enough on its own without the Fed having Snowden on trial here in the States, which would serve as an unwanted distraction from one of the most important political and social issues in the world today.
Mr. Snowden;
As an American and a former US Marine, I applaud you sir.
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SeaOfAsh
09 June 2013 8:35pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - Well, considering that Greenwald said today that there are still more documents coming, hopefully for a while. This. Cannot. Die. If it does, I will literally lose all hope for democracy in the US
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anagama
09 June 2013 8:42pm
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@whyohwhy1 -
Hero, and bravest person in the world.
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BeastNeedsMoreTorque
09 June 2013 8:42pm
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@whyohwhy1 - But like the Bankers, was any of what the NSA did illegal? All the laws have been set up so that governments can do this legally, just like they did with the banking laws. It's an inside coup. A concentration and consolidation of power.
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smith amy
09 June 2013 8:58pm
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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Jawja100
09 June 2013 9:09pm
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@DogAlmightyM - Now, if only someone will do something to get the commercial spies off our tails.
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aymoony
09 June 2013 9:13pm
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@BeastNeedsMoreTorque 09 June 2013 8:42pm. Get cifFix for Chrome.
was any of what the NSA did illegal?
It depends... do you consider the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights to be legal documents? If so, then yes.
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epinoa
09 June 2013 9:13pm
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It was very eloquent. I don't think that I could have talked at such great length so well.
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koRuLa
09 June 2013 9:14pm
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@DogAlmightyM - You say Americans deserved to know but remember those that mean us harm also got this heads up.
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HelenGerhardt
09 June 2013 9:16pm
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@RadicalLivre - Oh, lord, Snowden's mammoth courage totally overshadows that gnat-sized silliness.
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dikwiki
09 June 2013 9:19pm
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FluffytheObeseCat
09 June 2013 9:20pm
This comment has been chosen by Guardian staff because it contributes to the debate
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@BeastNeedsMoreTorque - All the laws have been set up so that governments can do this legally
Weeeelllllll.................. now. Not exactly. One little thing that keeps getting forgotten during this unrolling event is: Congressional oversight has been stymied in ways that are NOT truly legal. Not if you sit back and look at the balance of power designated by our Constitution.
The senate as whole should have more say in the governance of our security apparatus. The Select Committee on Intelligence should not be castrated by anti-Democratic constraints on discussion of vital matters. They should get better from the security folks than occasional info-deficient, glib, bullshit presentations. They should be able to demanding details, and they should get them promptly.
At present, we American taxpayers fund a security state the workings of which are better known to 29-year old contractors than our elected representatives. That is not only fucking insane, it is in direct conflict with the highest law of our land.
This is still, nominally, a democracy. However inconvenient that might seem, however tatty (and corrupt) many of our senators are, they are at least minimally dependent on the will of the people they represent.
Booz Allen by contrast, is only dependent on us the way a tapeworm in my gut is dependent on my diet. Since I can't or won't stop eating, it gets a slice of every pizza I consume, whether I will it or no.
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StrawBear
09 June 2013 9:24pm
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335
When a nation takes this kind of action it's clearly terrified, terrified of foreigners and terrified of its own citizens.
I think nearly a dozen years after the event, it's become clear that the terrorists won hands down.
I hope Mr Snowden's left alone to live out his exile in peace and quiet. The guy has more balls than the rest of us put together.
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DharmasWay
09 June 2013 9:24pm
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@whyohwhy1 -
Don't worry this man will help him. Alex jones, today he took over the BBC. Do watch, it's hilarious
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22832994
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hairycamel
09 June 2013 9:25pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - I'm not saying you are real or you are not real, but it can't harm to maintain a critical eye. Especially since your reaction seems somewhat perversed, given the scale of the implications of this breaking news.
So I will continue to spread the word
It is a matter of public record ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/20 ... l-networks ) there are government people paid to shape the debate online.
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Phineus
09 June 2013 9:26pm
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@DeleteThisPost - well said.
"As an American and a former US Marine, I applaud you sir."
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ID7031076
09 June 2013 9:33pm
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RedCat21
09 June 2013 9:36pm
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Thanks Ed. Legend.
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BeastNeedsMoreTorque
09 June 2013 9:38pm
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@aymoony - Obama's a constitutional lawyer by trade. The point I was trying to make in my original comment is that all this spying has been made legal. Bush authorized illegal wiretapping but Obama is more crafty than that. The Patriot Act circumvents the Constitution. The US public no longer has the protection of the Constitution, because it is defacto made null and void by the Patriot Act. And guess who all too willingly extended the life of the Patriot Act? "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
And how many of those Congressmen/women who are concerned about Privacy voted in favour of the Patriot Act? The naivety of people, no matter their station in life, never ceases to blow me away. If you grant people absolute power they're going to use it. If you grant the government the legal power to spy on you, they're going to spy on you.
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PleaseTurnLeft
09 June 2013 9:41pm
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@koRuLa - Or perhaps; Those to whom the US means harm got this heads up.
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ShrekII
09 June 2013 9:46pm
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@Yosserian - AAD, the disease younger Americans and now the world, suffer from. Three days of truth-telling is obviously too much for the young man. He's ready to go back to the more fun-filled fiction, I imagine...
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Jawja100
09 June 2013 9:46pm
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@FluffytheObeseCat - Repubs contracted out our government to save $. Really, it was a way to let their lobbyists make a killing.
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cw gf
09 June 2013 9:47pm
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@DogAlmightyM - The man is a hero and deserves a medal.
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john gotti
09 June 2013 9:52pm
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@koRuLa - How is intercepting my phone calls and emails going to stop terrorism? It didn't stop the Boston bombers
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Thomas Griffith
09 June 2013 9:59pm
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@DogAlmightyM - If everyone knew what information was collected, the enemy would be able to circumvent the NSA.. not a good thing at all, this is the fundamental reason why stuff like this is kept secret, not because people in the intelligence services want to know want to know your internet/phone activities - far from it , they'd want to cut that unnecessary stuff out!
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bamage
09 June 2013 9:59pm
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@whyohwhy1 - Seconded. Very much.
Mr. Snowden is probably "safer" "out" at this point in time... I hope he remains so.
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TheLibrarianApe
09 June 2013 10:00pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - If you don't think this is one of the most important stories of the Internet era - then you have a screw loose my friend.
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john gotti
09 June 2013 10:02pm
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@whyohwhy1 - Now the MSNBC balloon heads start accusing him of being a paranoid racist
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Tiger184
09 June 2013 10:03pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - You are exactly the kind of person Snowden was talking about when expressing concern that people will simply move on from this and do nothing.
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Roman78
09 June 2013 10:06pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk
thank you indeed, but I wonder how long the guardian will keep flogging this story? Three days and counting...
Check out the BGT live blog if you want something more to your taste.
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kingfelix
09 June 2013 10:12pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - Haha, this story is about the very fabric of our daily lives, from here until eternity. What a dimwit thou arest.
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BonkIfYouHonk
09 June 2013 10:13pm
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@geo423 - where do I start? Turkey? Syria? US/China summit? - many stories with more importance than this "bear shits in woods" so called scoop by the guardian...
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Saultxyca
09 June 2013 10:13pm
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1
@Jawja100 - Really creepy, nest-ce pas?
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BonkIfYouHonk
09 June 2013 10:16pm
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@GRSmith300 - ha - just wait to see how hard they flog the forthcoming demise of Mr Mandela. I'm not saying it isn't a worthy story, but front page coverage, day after day after day trying to find new things to say about it... no thanks.
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Saultxyca
09 June 2013 10:18pm
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@Saultxyca - R-e-a-l-l-y creepy, n'est-ce pas? Especially those morphed 'pitch-caricatures' that look suspiciously like oneself ... (their sheer creepiness makes them self-defeating). Once again, an overreach by the Big Eye and its deeply vested interests.
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eowyn1
09 June 2013 10:18pm
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@DogAlmightyM - I don't understand why he would seek asylum in China. The Chinese government is bound to be more intrusive than ours. We have protests, too, but are not murdered in the street for it like protesters are there. It makes me wonder if he did something wrong and leaked this information as a cover and to receive asylum more easly or from a government he had been helping. I mean no disrespect to him, unless it is something like this. I just don't get it. China?
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eowyn1
09 June 2013 10:20pm
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@DeleteThisPost - I don't understand why he would seek asylum in China. The Chinese government is bound to be more intrusive than ours. We have protests, too, but are not murdered in the street for it like protesters are there. It makes me wonder if he did something wrong and leaked this information as a cover and to receive asylum more easly or from a government he had been helping. I mean no disrespect to him, unless it is something like this. I just don't get it. China?
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shakercoola
09 June 2013 10:21pm
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7
@whyohwhy1 - "How sweet it is to hate one's native land, to desire its ruin, and in its ruin to discern the dawn of universal rebirth."
Vladimir Pecherin
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tmbttd
09 June 2013 10:21pm
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@DogAlmightyM - I think peoples around the globe who are "controlled" by the few in various governments can sigh a sigh of some relief.
The next time someone from the Obama administration tells me that it was Bush's "fault" or whomever's "fault" I will direct them to this article. Also, the next person that tells me government is "transparent" just might find themselves with a black eye and a fist full of knuckles.
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cantpleaseall
09 June 2013 10:23pm
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@BeastNeedsMoreTorque - Sorry, it's not legal. The NSA was chartered to spy on other nations, not the US. The FBI is the only agency that can spy on the US.
section 2.3, “Collection of Information” included in “Executive Order 12333-United States Intelligence activities,” specifically limits the NSA’s collection of data to “foreign intelligence or counterintelligence” sources, further stipulating that data collection within the United States
"shall be undertaken by the FBI or, when significant foreign intelligence is sought, by other authorized agencies of the Intelligence Community, provided that no foreign intelligence collection by such agencies may be undertaken for the purpose of acquiring information concerning the domestic activities of United States persons."
It is ILLEGAL!
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aaronpeacock
09 June 2013 10:24pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - no, you really don't get it. or anything.
this is THE chink in the armor that will cause the whole wall to fall down, and you insist on seeing individual trees and no forest? get a life!
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Jonathan Mailer
09 June 2013 10:25pm
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@koRuLa - "but remember those that mean us harm also got this heads up."
They wouldn't mean us harm if we weren't an empire supporting dictators who grind them into poverty and oppression (the Shah, Musharraf, Mubarak, Saleh) or bombing, invading, or occupying their countries.
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jopestron
09 June 2013 10:29pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - Don't worry. I'm sure there is some vital Hollywood gossip happening right now. Maybe your favorite actress bought a new dress, or maybe your favorite sports star had an affair! We'll keep you posted.
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garand555
09 June 2013 10:31pm
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@Thomas Griffith - Then may they should have cut that unnecessary stuff out. Oops.
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DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 10:34pm
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@eowyn1 09 June 2013 10:20pm.
Hong Kong actually makes a lot of sense, considering the circumstances. I am not under any Guardianista, ultra left-wing, batshit-crazy notion that China is a more free, open or democratic society than the US. Hell, I even hope that Manning goes to jail for at least a decent bit of time.
But in this case I do believe that Snowden has more to fear from the US's DOJ than he does from China.
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moralreef
09 June 2013 10:57pm
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@DeleteThisPost - The Hong Kong SAR is still not the PRC. It has similar democratic and free speech than most Western nations, which mainland still respects, and the very fact that a security systems expert has chosen it as a suitable location is extremely telling how much America's culture of freedom has eroded over the years.
So perhaps it is pertinent to say Hong Kong is a 'freer' society than the U.S. nowadays
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onefeather
09 June 2013 11:14pm
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@DogAlmightyM - Well said..
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aubreyfarmer
09 June 2013 11:16pm
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TheClave
09 June 2013 11:18pm
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@RadicalLivre - What? A new found understanding that when someone gives their word, they will not keep it?
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JRTomlin
09 June 2013 11:22pm
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@koRuLa - Oh, they had no idea before that they were being spied upon? Give me a break.
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toosinbeymen
09 June 2013 11:23pm
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@BeastNeedsMoreTorque - The "patriot" act has never been tested by SCOTUS to see if it's legal or not. Further, the Obama admin's interpretation of it has not either.
Why? Because no one could legitimately claim standing. Now that's changed because all Verizon's business clients' records being seized.
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ID3921519
09 June 2013 11:24pm
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@StrawBear - I have to agree. The terrorists won. Osama bin Laden is probably laughing in his grave.
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David Conner
09 June 2013 11:24pm
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@BeastNeedsMoreTorque - There may be laws supporting what the NSA is doing, It is unconstitutional as are the laws. Please read the Constitution and the fourth amendment. Again?
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Hadsnuff
09 June 2013 11:28pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - I am sure Nelson Mandela would be truly delighted to see your comment.
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Clara Eagle
09 June 2013 11:29pm
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@whyohwhy1 - Hussein Obama the worse real ULTIMATE BRAZEN HYPOCRITE in your face and he does't care , he say in his govt website change.org , he applaud whistleblower but when they actually their whistle he want them DEAD and bury . ,He is Tyranny corrupt liar intimidation gangster that's how he learn from ghetto south side Chicago dirty machine ....now go to national/global level help by corrupt US media
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ersatzian
09 June 2013 11:31pm
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@moralreef -
...the very fact that a security systems expert has chosen it [Hong Kong] as a suitable location is extremely telling how much America's culture of freedom has eroded over the years.
So perhaps it is pertinent to say Hong Kong is a 'freer' society than the U.S. nowadays[.]
I'm sorry if you aren't American, but do you realize how pompous this sounds? That you can go around a place and decide how free it is based on the number of statutes in a book? It's like whenever someone (usually American) describes Americans as a freedom-loving people. Well, what the fuck, who isn't? It is not news that governments say one thing and then do another. What are governments but more people? The only reason we love to give the US shit for this is because the distance between what the state practices and what it preaches is amusingly large. The CCP is infamous for lying most of the time to the point where hardly anyone ever believes what the people in charge say, which is fine because we're not expecting anything better. But it is different with the US because it likes to trumpet on and on about how free it is and how brave its people. If more Americans went abroad and took more than three, four hours outside their hotel rooms and tourist traps, they'd know that most people are too busy living their lives to bother with feeling free. I mean, let's be sensible. Is there oppression? Yes. Are there bad things that happen in life? Yes. Are there bad people? Also yes. Now, will those things go away just because we put another poor sod in office or resort to anarchy? No, they won't. I'm not saying that people shouldn't actively try to improve their lives or that they should accept totalitarianism, but must we whine so while doing it? Take Singapore. It is a benevolent dictatorship. Americans don't like talking about it other than to criticize its bizarre policy on chewing gum because it's the antithesis to the American political experiment and it also works. Surprise surprise, there's more than one way to skin a cat. You can try go asking how oppressed the average Singaporean feels and I'm sure you'll get complaints, but on the whole, I daresay I'd feel every inch as free walking down Orchard Road than I would Fifth Avenue. Of course there's oppression; it's government, it's compromise—meaning at some point we won't get what we want. The task, then, is to reform human character and genetics via education and the wonders of science so thoroughly that we'll all be happy vegans on the barter system, but until then what we're doing is damage control: How much oppression is acceptable in a system of diverse and differing interests?
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Mike C. Ward
09 June 2013 11:37pm
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@Jawja100 - They also contracted it out because contractors are less accountable to the public than government employees.
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rewiredhogdog
09 June 2013 11:40pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - Hey, this is the biggest story since Daniel Ellsberg leaked The Pentagon Papers.
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addywisbef
09 June 2013 11:40pm
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@BeastNeedsMoreTorque - The 4th Amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated.."
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BeastNeedsMoreTorque
09 June 2013 11:41pm
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@cantpleaseall - I'm certainly not condoning it by stating that its legal. Slavery in certain states in the US was once legal, but it didn't make it right.
Leading up to 9/11 the CIA (or some other spy agency of the US gov/Military) were tracking two terrorist suspects overseas. When they entered the United States the Spy agency could not continue to track them for reasons that you point out. However, because of the legal obligation to turn matters over to the FBI the whereabouts of these two suspects got lost. Post 9/11 Politicians sought to remedy that by making the laws much more vague regarding surveillance.
A judge has granted legal permission for the collection of the data. Perhaps that Judge made a legal error in granting that permission that could be challenged in court. However, the point is the Obama government did not have to do a "Nixon" or a "Bush", that is knowingly break the law, because the laws have been altered in such a way that they don't have to.
The legal "cover my ass" clause for the govt is that the NSA is collecting this data for foreign intelligence purposes. Terrorism is seen as a foreign threat. Foreigners are "seen to be" operating within the US, hence the legal justification for scooping up the data within the USA. The NSA is using a trawl net to catch a couple of "minnows". The bonus for the NSA and the govt is all this "extra" data they get on US citizens too. Data that is longer protected by law.
Perhaps I'm wrong in my legal interpretations. People were outraged about what the Banks did, but thanks to Bill Clinton, Phil Gramm and others, what the banks did wasn't illegal. It's a gray area, they're called loopholes. I think what the NSA is doing is exploiting a loophole.
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roof
09 June 2013 11:47pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - You have got to be kidding. Every one of us is spied upon by another country and you don't think it's a big deal?
We should thank this guy for what he did.
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Peter Carter
09 June 2013 11:47pm
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@geo423 - Syria?
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Evereste
09 June 2013 11:51pm
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@whyohwhy1 - A hero to millions in moments!
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Roosterbooster198
09 June 2013 11:52pm
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@BonkIfYouHonk - Yeah... it's kind of worth flogging. The massive, blanket surveillance of everyone in the USA and Britain is kind of a big deal.
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BeastNeedsMoreTorque
09 June 2013 11:56pm
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@David Conner - I have no argument with the constitution or with you. All I'm trying to point out is that the laws have been altered as to become so vague that they can easily be circumvented via loopholes or Byzantine legal interpretations. Things like the Patriot Act when it was first proposed should have provoked at least the outrage that the PRSM revelations have today. Did you know that the Soviet Union had a constitution? One that protected the rights of its citizens? A lot of good that did the people.
Few protested the Patriot Act at the time. 9/11 effectively gave US govts unprecedented power over its citizens, largely by consent. Now the people are only waking up to the consequences of that consent, that naive trust.
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BeastNeedsMoreTorque
09 June 2013 11:58pm
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@addywisbef - As I stated elsewhere, the Soviet Union had a constitution protecting the rights of its citizens. How did that turn out?
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yongtaufooboy
09 June 2013 11:59pm
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@RadicalLivre - your faith in the whole humanity is based on the actions of 1 brave man? Wow. Next week some chap will shoot a few people and there goes your "faith in humanity" yeah? Awful, awful internet-popularised phrase and i hope you didnt mean it literally.
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DaveUK1977
10 June 2013 12:02am
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@Tiger184 - But it's been THREE DAYS man! Lol. wtf.
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somebodysomewhere
10 June 2013 12:15am
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@BeastNeedsMoreTorque - point of information
'Slavery in certain states in the US was once legal, but it didn't make it right.'
slavery was legal throughout the entire country until 1865 and codified in the constitution. re-read the various provisions for representation, etc. in the body of that document. (Africans were counted as 3/5 of a Euro-American in each census, foe example.)
and historically, they have been quite adept at creating laws and provisos to protect property rights ('pursuit of happiness') over all else. the supreme court ruling regarding corporate 'political rights' being a recent example.
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AhBrightWings
10 June 2013 12:28am
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@BonkIfYouHonk -
but I wonder how long the guardian will keep flogging this story? Three days and counting...
I hope the story is covered until it moves us to collective action. What has crippled us is our inertia. We (as a collective nation) have the attention span of gnats. This story was a decade in the making. Allow space for it to unfold.
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eowyn1
10 June 2013 12:32am
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@eowyn1 - I just read about the relationship between China and Hong Kong, and because of British rule of Hong Kong until 1997, there are alot of differences between China and Hong Kong. I understand a little more now.
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JohnBroggio
09 June 2013 7:32pm
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1042
Hero.
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Gelion
09 June 2013 8:18pm
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@JohnBroggio -
Sure, but you know Google and Facebook were already selling this information to other corporations so it's not like it is a massive step forward to the government shifting the information.
And it's not like they can do anything with it anyway ... the Boston bombings, Newtown, the shooting in the US the other day, the government seem to be completely unable to act on it.
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SeaOfAsh
09 June 2013 8:36pm
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@Gelion - Wrong! Google would not go about "selling" the contents of every single e-mail and chat message you and I send and receive. They would have their asses handed to them in no time. Only the government is allowed to do all that (apparently)
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DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 8:40pm
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@Gelion 09 June 2013 8:18pm.
Google makes 95% of its profits from AdWords...you know, those few ads that pop up at the top of many search requests. I don't know where the other 5% of their money comes from, but Google can't possibly get enough out of that 5% from selling your information to make it worth it to them to sell your information.
I don't know about Facebook, but unless you have some sort of evidence that Google actually sells our personal data I will continue to believe that that is nonsense.
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admin_pornrev: Site Admin; Posts: 832; Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind the NSA surveillanc

by admin_pornrev » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:19 pm

COMMENTS

Sean9812
09 June 2013 8:44pm
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@Gelion - Sure, but there is a key difference, Google, Facebook et all don't have the power to toss you in a prison. With that said, I don't think it is ethically right what these corporations are doing, but in the end they just want to sell me a product. Governments however have many different ways of abusing such information, and there end goal isn't selling me something, but ultimately controlling me.
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jakebrother
09 June 2013 8:54pm
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21
@Gelion -
Really; I rather suspect that it is more a case of a government(s) unwilling to act on it because it helps to further their agenda(s)........
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ibeeducky
09 June 2013 8:55pm
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56
@Gelion - geezzz...corporations use the information they "buy" to try to "sell" products. The government is "forcing" phone companies and internet providers to provide same government with very private information. There is a huge difference between the two actions.
Some of the provisions in the Patriotic Act were supposed to sunset, but congress and obama extended them. I do not have anything to hide, but I really question that the government should have access to everything that I do because of 9/11. What is real disturbing is that if this data mining is effective, why wasn't the Boston bombings stopped??
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mrtnjms
09 June 2013 8:57pm
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@SeaOfAsh - By reading your email and matching you with ads, they are selling the content if not the object of your email.
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Malkatrinho
09 June 2013 9:03pm
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221
@JohnBroggio -
Hero
I'd give him a Nobel Peace Prize, if it hadn't been grossly devalued by previous recipients.
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Sachaflashman
09 June 2013 9:13pm
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@JohnBroggio -
Yes, he is a hero but don't be fooled into thinking this type of thing cannot happen in Europe:
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../EU-funding-Orwe ... viour.html
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Jawja100
09 June 2013 9:13pm
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8
@SeaOfAsh - You ever hear of "cookies"?
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epinoa
09 June 2013 9:17pm
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46
@JohnBroggio - Before long the US is going to have prisons full of political prisoners if it goes on like this.
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robm2001
09 June 2013 9:19pm
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26
@DeleteThisPost - Google are paying little taxes AND spying on you.
Easy to swap to a different search engine - duckduckgo - then at least google gets no ad words.
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waterfall12
09 June 2013 9:22pm
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0
@Malkatrinho - Why ?
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momabird
09 June 2013 9:22pm
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24
@SeaOfAsh - It was Google remember that tried to copy ALL books in EVERY Library everywhere to put on the web, IN VIOLATION OF AUTHORS' COPYRIGHTS. For more info see the Author's Guild, which sued them and lawsuits are still going on. So I do not trust Google not to sell its mother down the drain.
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Malkatrinho
09 June 2013 9:25pm
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0
@waterfall12 - Why what?
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Phineus
09 June 2013 9:27pm
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3
@Gelion - stop being so passive.
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Sachaflashman
09 June 2013 9:30pm
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13
@Sachaflashman -
Shami Chakrabarti, the director of human rights group Liberty, described the introduction of such mass surveillance techniques as a "sinister step" for any country, adding that it was "positively chilling" on a European scale.
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DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 9:41pm
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@robm2001 09 June 2013 9:19pm.
Google are paying little taxes AND spying on you. Easy to swap to a different search engine - duckduckgo - then at least google gets no ad words.
Aside from the fact that your reply has almost nothing to do with my post...
I don't want to switch to a different search engine because there isn't anything as good as Google. And there isn't any company that makes my online/computing/smartphone life as easy as Google does. Google gives me a ton of free software and apps that all blend seamlessly together (and neither duckduckgo nor even Bing can say that).
If the government legally tells them to hand over data then I'm going to blame the government, not Google. And if Google isn't paying what the Guardian thinks is their fair share of tax (especially when they don't break any tax laws) then I really don't care.
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LeDingue
09 June 2013 9:48pm
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@epinoa 09 June 2013 9:17pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Before long the US is going to have prisons full of political prisoners if it goes on like this.
Handily enough FEMA has them already set up and awaiting 'guests'.
Just nearby are the concrete-lined mass graves and stockpiles of muti-corpse pastic grave liners.
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john gotti
09 June 2013 9:54pm
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23
@DeleteThisPost - You have a choice of whether to use google and facebook or not. You can avoid them. How can you avoid a government that intercepts everything?
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DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 10:17pm
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2
@john gotti 09 June 2013 9:54pm.
Exactly.
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MrGoldenSilence
09 June 2013 10:18pm
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23
@Malkatrinho -
I'd give him a Nobel Peace Prize, if it hadn't been grossly devalued by previous recipients.

Very well said, it has now got to the point where everything that comes out of Washington is empty, meaningless dribble or diabolical deceit at best!
It makes me really angry to see Obama talking about his concerns regarding cyber security… What a TOSSER.
They say “well you only should worry if you have something to hide”
Well… let’s reverse that then… they do have lots to hide and they have not even begun with their main plans in the Middle East and beyond.
We need to act before it’s too late.
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BeastNeedsMoreTorque
09 June 2013 10:19pm
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0
@DeleteThisPost - Have a look at this, says it better than I can:
http://www.
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BeastNeedsMoreTorque
09 June 2013 10:21pm
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2
@BeastNeedsMoreTorque - well that didn't pan out. lets try that again
http://donttrack.us/
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Saultxyca
09 June 2013 10:22pm
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12
@Sachaflashman - A police state masquerading as a democracy.
Beware of the military-industrial-congressional complex, so said Ike upon taking his leave from the Oval Orifice.
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DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 10:28pm
This comment has been chosen by Guardian staff because it contributes to the debate
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20
@BeastNeedsMoreTorque 09 June 2013 10:19pm.
That link is like Google Basics for Dummies: A reference for the rest of us.
I don't know if there is anything in there that you found surprising, I hope not. That's how Google is able to provide the services that it does.
But if the government wants your data they will probalby ask Google. If you don't use Google then they will just ask someone else, like the search provider that you do use, or more likely they'll just ask your ISP.
The problem isn't that Google is good at what they do, the problem is that the government has the (self given) right and capability to force Google (or any other company) to turn over that data.
Do you actually believe that Google is happy about such government requests for user data? Hell no they're not!
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jopestron
09 June 2013 10:36pm
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1
@robm2001 - here here! Consumers have the power to bankrupt Google. If the advertisers leave Google alone, Google go bye-bye.
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Jonathan Mailer
09 June 2013 10:37pm
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8
@Gelion - "Sure, but you know Google and Facebook were already selling this information to other corporations so it's not like it is a massive step forward to the government shifting the information."
Absolute bullsh*t. There's a helluva difference between, say, buying and app from Google and app maker getting your name and address. Don't buy apps from the Google App Store. This is the government getting e-mails from everywhere.
Nice try, Mr. NSA troll.
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eowyn1
09 June 2013 10:47pm
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0
@robm2001 - I thought they were known for avoiding taxes.
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Malkatrinho
09 June 2013 11:04pm
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10
@MrGoldenSilence -
you only should worry if you have something to hide
The scary thing is it doesn't mater if you've got nothing to hide, it'll all be recorded and stored away in a server in Utah anyway.
If they want to come after you, or create a reason to come after you, whether you've attended a protest, or registered you displeasure about something via an online poll, you will be on file, they can track your phone, your position, who you shared your displeasure with, what you talked about, the pictures you took on holiday, everything.
Shall we retreat to a pre-internet age? Sending letters, photocopies and floppy disks in the mail?
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BeastNeedsMoreTorque
09 June 2013 11:13pm
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2
@DeleteThisPost - Yes the government has the power to force Google to turn over that data. The rest cannot force Google they can only entice with money, which Google has the power to turn down, or not.
I don't know if there is anything in there that you found surprising, I hope not.
Rest assured, I was already informed. Google is probably the best search engine out there.
but Google can't possibly get enough out of that 5% from selling your information to make it worth it to them to sell your information.
It was merely this comment that prompted me to post the link. I hadn't seen the subsequent posts about DuckDuckGo. A lot of people really are naive about Google and search terms.
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sayiloveuoften
09 June 2013 11:18pm
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0
@epinoa - yeah..kind of ironic...
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JRTomlin
09 June 2013 11:23pm
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1
@Sachaflashman - It already is happening in Europe. You think the communications NSA is monitoring don't come in part for Europe? And how sure are you that MI5 isn't involved?
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Roman78
09 June 2013 11:26pm
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0
@JohnBroggio Bradley Manning's future cellmate.
No irony or joke intended.
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DaveUK1977
10 June 2013 12:05am
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0
@robm2001 - Thanks for this info about the alternate search engines (make one your default homepage!). Looks great.
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ersatzian
10 June 2013 12:07am
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0
@Malkatrinho -
Shall we retreat to a pre-internet age? Sending letters, photocopies and floppy disks in the mail?
Through a mail service run by who? Oh. But I'm with the pre-Internet idea. It'd be nice: a slower pace of life, more boredom, fewer people being uncivil on online forums.
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SoAmerican
10 June 2013 12:20am
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0
@mrtnjms - They don't have to read your emails to find out what you like. Simply noting what websites you go to, links you follow and search terms you use will tell them plenty. I mean, do you write emails looking for things to buy or do you actually look (go to websites, follow links, use searches, etc) for things to buy?
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HulloHulot
09 June 2013 7:32pm
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844
Brave man.
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iamnotwise
09 June 2013 8:02pm
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451
@HulloHulot - Brave, and refreshingly articulate after listening to the stilted lies of politicians and security officials.
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HulloHulot
09 June 2013 8:34pm
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259
@iamnotwise - People like him, those with a functioning moral compass and the lucidity to use it, are what we need to see more often amongst our politicians and security officials.
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iamnotwise
09 June 2013 8:40pm
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81
@HulloHulot - I completely agree. Though I believe the current recruitment guidelines preclude anyone with those attributes from ever gaining a ticket to run. I've always thought that if someone actually wants to rule or govern they should be banned from doing so. Perhaps we should draw our representatives by lot - I'm sure we'd get a better average than we do now!
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RJSadler
09 June 2013 8:43pm
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53
@HulloHulot - To most of them morality is nothing more than a convenient word to bring out around campaign times
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mspacek
09 June 2013 9:26pm
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18
@iamnotwise - That reminds me of an Arthur C Clarke book I read as a kid, set a couple hundred years in the future, where presidents were chosen randomly from a large pool of reasonably capable people, for the very reasons you state. Kind of like jury duty.
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FluffytheObeseCat
09 June 2013 9:28pm
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13
@RJSadler - To most of them morality is nothing more than a convenient word to bring out around campaign times
Quite.
And quite besides the point. The harlots in Congress are out there in constant public view; they need to run for re-election. If they get too obviously out of line, they occasionally get thrown out of office. Impeachments and censure are rare, but extant dangers (and we aren't talking about the ballsiest of men).
A dull blade in my hand is still more valuable to me than one I can't get hold of.
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Phineus
09 June 2013 9:28pm
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11
@HulloHulot - we need a seismic shift - the system is suborned.
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iamnotwise
09 June 2013 9:30pm
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9
@mspacek - I've often thought it would be worth trying. Along with vastly limiting inherited wealth - put an end to undeserving dynasties.
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HulloHulot
09 June 2013 9:32pm
This comment has been chosen by Guardian staff because it contributes to the debate
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83
@iamnotwise -
Perhaps we should draw our representatives by lot - I'm sure we'd get a better average than we do now!
The Ancient Greeks saw sortition, lots, as essential to a proper democracy and even developed machines to stop people from rigging the process through bribery. Some have argued that a completely randomised method of selecting representatives could lead to people who weren't representative of a population from getting into power, but isn't that what we already have?
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iamnotwise
09 June 2013 9:55pm
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14
@HulloHulot - Well, I thought there was a past occasion when it had been done. Thank you for providing the details. It may sound like madness to some but what is evident now is that we need an alternative system of governance to that which we have now; a return to real democratic government that represents the people and regulates industry - not the other way around!
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HulloHulot
09 June 2013 10:12pm
This comment has been chosen by Guardian staff because it contributes to the debate
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@iamnotwise - No trouble. The longer this recession drags out and the more exposes like this there are, the more tempting an alternative system becomes. Some of the comments on here have suggested that such change, or even seeing real accountability in our current system, is impossible. Perhaps it's a triumph of optimism over experience, but I'd like to think otherwise.
@HulloHulot - If I'd known that'd get a pick, I'd have kept an excerpt from a speech Herodotus invented for his Histories, a speech put in the mouth of Otane and one which emphasises sortition as a test of democracy:
'How can one fit monarchy into any sound system of ethics, when it allows a man to do whatever he likes without any responsibility or control? Even the best of men raised to such a position would be bound to change for the worse - he could not possibly see things as he used to do. […] Contrast with this the rule of the people: […]Under a government of the people each magistrate is appointed by lot and is held responsible for his conduct in office, and all questions are put up for open debate. For these reasons I propose that we do away with the monarchy, and raise the people to power; for the state and the people are synonymous terms.
Translations vary (that was from Aubrey de Sélincourt's, published by the Folio Society) but the idea remains consistent.
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eowyn1
09 June 2013 10:58pm
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8
@HulloHulot - We are lucky to have a great framework, the constitution. We need to stay awake now, and campaign and fight to get career politicians voted out. We, as a nation, have relied on the good intention of our representitives, but they have failed us. We must demand term limits, and remain deligent. Then we must find a way to teach the constitution to our children... outside of the corrupting influence of our public schools. It's not easy, but we must also demand responsibility from our fellow citizens, and lastly, not fall asleep again.
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CitizenTM
09 June 2013 11:09pm
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4
@iamnotwise -
I had this same idea: electing representatives by straw polls. Every person (between 25-65 and with a high school diploma) is a candidate and chance will decide. No reelection - one 5 year term for any office.
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ActivistGal
09 June 2013 7:32pm
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854
I don't need to read this to know that what you have done is perform an INCREDIBLE public service, not just for your fellow Americans, but for all of us, EVERYWHERE. Bravo and from the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU.
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jabberwolf
09 June 2013 8:51pm
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129
@ActivistGal -
Seeing as the NSA was bluntly violating the 4th Amendment of the constitution.. I see him as paying the highest services to this country anyone could - upholding the rights of all Americans.
I don't care if a secret federal judge approved it, I don't care that congress oked it (I don't think they knew about this order), and I don't care Obama said its ok - the constitution is the highest law of the land above all offices.
Thank you Edward Snowden for showing the NSA and Obama for breaking it. They should be the ones tried for treason !!
(Manning, he wasn't trying to out anyone for breaking the law. - I don't consider him in the same light)
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ActivistGal
09 June 2013 9:11pm
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@jabberwolf - so the release of (for example) the collateral murder video, proof of war crimes, was done just for fun?!
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john gotti
09 June 2013 9:55pm
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21
@ActivistGal - Mr Snowden is a true patriot and hero.
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eowyn1
09 June 2013 11:02pm
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1
@jabberwolf - But why is Snowden in China? It is more intrusive than the USA. I hope there is nothing fishy here. I agree with you about Manning. He seems a bit of a traitor to me.
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Addicks123
09 June 2013 7:33pm
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385
Brave man - I wonder what they'll find on him...
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laguerre
09 June 2013 7:54pm
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287
@Addicks123 09 June 2013 7:33pm.
I wonder what they'll find on him...
It'll be a rape accusation, like Assange.
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IPFS
09 June 2013 7:56pm
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199
@Addicks123 - said exactly the same thing to my missus as soon as I read this story. I give him a couple of days before the smearing begins.
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hani42
09 June 2013 8:00pm
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72
@Addicks123 - They don't have to find anything on him, they will put him in jail for compromising state secrets.
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Yosserian
09 June 2013 8:10pm
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153
@IPFS -
said exactly the same thing to my missus as soon as I read this story. I give him a couple of days before the smearing begins.
And that is exactly why the NSA collects all that information on everyone.
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IPFS
09 June 2013 8:18pm
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1
@hani42 - The US does NOT have an official secrets act.
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sayiloveuoften
09 June 2013 8:21pm
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155
@Addicks123
- Another brave soul, another Julian Assange.
We knew or we had an inkling that this was going on but nobody was saying it; this guy can't live with his conscience which is admirable...how many of us see something and just let it go by...
I wish you the best, i am like many others here, just plainly in awe of you. When you go to bed at night, just know that many people are on your side and you are an inspiration to us all.
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ID1891971
09 June 2013 8:26pm
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1
@IPFS - Minutes.
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hani42
09 June 2013 8:34pm
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15
@IPFS - Tell that to Bradley Manning.
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DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 8:59pm
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29
@laguerre 09 June 2013 7:54pm.
It'll be a rape accusation, like Assange.
You know, there may just be a couple of women in Sweden who need to see a therapist every time they hear someone make a comment like that.
But since Assange ran Wikileaks, and even though the US has never asked for his extradition or charged him with a crime, you feel comfortable in denying those women their day in court.
I hope you don't have any daughters.
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waterfall12
09 June 2013 9:23pm
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0
@hani42 - So,is he a traitor ?
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mspacek
09 June 2013 9:27pm
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22
@DeleteThisPost - And I hope you don't have any sons.
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TimJag
09 June 2013 9:28pm
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19
@DeleteThisPost 09 June 2013 8:59pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Oh don't be so dramatic.
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FluffytheObeseCat
09 June 2013 9:36pm
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37
@DeleteThisPost - there may just be a couple of women in Sweden who need to see a therapist every time they hear someone make a comment like that.
Doubtful. The women who brought his behavior to the attention of the authorities were shut out of this circus months ago, and at least one of them has stated she is not happy with the unusually vigorous official pursuit of Assange.
I tend to suspect he's a skank, who should go to Sweden and answer the questions they have in re these alleged incidences of sexual misconduct. But, I really, really distrust you big-hearted fellows who keep worrying over the matter in the press. Your delicacy in regards to womens' rights is too precious by far.
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eamonx
09 June 2013 9:36pm
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18
@DeleteThisPost - How would you feel if he's proven innocent in court?
Is it not part of justice for the accused to remain innocent until proven guilty?
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avayal2000
09 June 2013 9:45pm
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1
@sayiloveuoften - For me, just another depressed maniac.
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BobSoper
09 June 2013 9:48pm
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@DeleteThisPost - there have been no charges filed against Assange. The Swedish prosecutor has been unwilling to interview him in England or by teleconferencing. They have also been unwilling to promise not to extradite him to the US.
Those women were acting at the behest of the CIA... classic honey trap.
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PleaseTurnLeft
09 June 2013 9:49pm
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@DeleteThisPost - I have daughters. One has to believe that they have been raped before getting upset. There is too much inconsistency in the Assange allegations to take them seriously.
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DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 9:51pm
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@eamonx 09 June 2013 9:36pm.
If he even went to Sweden to speak with investigators then I would have been happy with that outcome, even if he wasn't charged. I have nothing against the guy...except for the fact that he was accused of rape and he immediately hid in an embassy.
Of course it's innocent until proven guilty, but he ran away from the cops before they even had a chance to investigate, and he had the gall to claim that the Swedish investigation was some sort of political conspiracy against him.
I just wonder, every time I hear his name brought up regarding the allegations of rape, how it must feel for a rape victim to hear her story marginalized by the public because the public isn't a fan of some third party.
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DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 9:54pm
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@FluffytheObeseCat 09 June 2013 9:36pm.
Your delicacy in regards to womens' rights is too precious by far.
I'm sorry, but...
...just what in the Christ-loving fuck is that supposed to mean? Pardon me if I want a woman who accuses a man of rape to at least have her allegations investigated!
What kind of sick world do you live in where it is okay to dismiss a rape allegation just because you like the guy accused of the crime?
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john gotti
09 June 2013 9:56pm
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@hani42 - What state secrets? That they were violating the law?
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Bertaboop
09 June 2013 9:57pm
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@IPFS - Yes we do. It's called the 4th Ammendment of our Consitution, and our current/prior regimes/administrations are trampling all over it before our very eyes.
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runkpock
09 June 2013 9:58pm
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@eamonx - In america, you're guilty until proven innocent. Hence there is no justice.
Take Obama's words on Bradley Manning. He called him a guilty man, before any kind of trial had started. Drone strikes killing "accused" or "suspects". The NDAA, indefinite detention without trial.
...and that's only come from 1 term of a single president.
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jsunny
09 June 2013 10:00pm
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@IPFS - to brainwash the American people, they will find something to blacken his name and his story
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jsunny
09 June 2013 10:03pm
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@jsunny - /\ /\ /\ sorry that was in reply to @hani42
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TimJag
09 June 2013 10:08pm
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@DeleteThisPost - You're dramatising again, it weakens your case.
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DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 10:18pm
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@TimJag 09 June 2013 10:08pm.
Do you have anything useful to add?
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TimJag
09 June 2013 10:42pm
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@DeleteThisPost 09 June 2013 10:18pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Ok, I feel that you have hijacked this debate and turned it into yet another (boring I might add) discussion about the guilt of Julian Assange, a debate that was already long in the tooth six months ago.
Democracy is in crisis, our governments are acting above the law, and if we continue along the path that we are on then we will one day find ourselves without the freedoms that we take for granted.
Julian Assange is on the run, he is paranoid, after the news we have learned this weekend, I'm not surprised. We may never no whether he is guilty of what he has been accused of, but what we do no is that in the west a person is innocent until proven guilty. There is no more to it than that.
Having been a victim of an abduction and attempted rape I know just how awful and demoralizing, downright suicidal if I am being truly honest.
But today, this is beside the point. I find your hyperbolic posts a little disquieting because it feels like you are actually enjoying the self righteousness of your statements more than trying to add any meaningful debate to today's events. If we could all stay with the subject we may learn a little more.
That's all.
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admin_pornrev: Site Admin; Posts: 832; Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind the NSA surveillanc

by admin_pornrev » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:20 pm

o
DeleteThisPost
09 June 2013 10:56pm
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@TimJag 09 June 2013 10:42pm.
I find your hyperbolic posts a little disquieting because it feels like you are actually enjoying the self righteousness of your statements more than trying to add any meaningful debate to today's events.
Well if you have the time then please read a few of the other posts I have made on this article. I don't enjoy acting self righteous, and I don't feel that way.
But on this point I was simply commenting on how uncomfortable I feel when someone deifies, Assange considering that two different Swedish women accused him of rape and many here disregarded their accusations simply because they don't like the US.
We may never no whether he is guilty of what he has been accused of, but what we do no is that in the west a person is innocent until proven guilty
And you're right, we may never know if he is guilty or not, and a person is innocent until proven guilty...in a court of law. Unfortunately that is a court that the women who say that he raped them will probably never see the inside of.
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TimJag
09 June 2013 11:06pm
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@DeleteThisPost 09 June 2013 10:56pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Ok, we know how you feel, and I respect your opinion. People can be a bit teenage about all this - it does feel like we've entered a Gene Hackman movie, after all!
Have a nice day, you sound like a caring person.
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JRTomlin
09 June 2013 11:27pm
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@DeleteThisPost - How long would it have been before he had been in US hands? Minutes? I am female. I have a daughter. I absolutely sympathise with his taking refuge. There was no way that wasn't a trap.
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Roman78
09 June 2013 11:28pm
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@Addicks123 Rape, drugs, pedophilia, homosexuality .
At least the Soviets used to assasinate people, rather than their character.
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sayiloveuoften
09 June 2013 11:33pm
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@DeleteThisPost -
whatever you are saying is NOT working, but nice try. A lot of us have daughters and have sons...although i don't think you need to have any children to know what is right and what is wrong.
I like the name you choose to post your comments, how perfect ~
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ersatzian
10 June 2013 12:15am
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@DeleteThisPost -
What kind of sick world do you live in where it is okay to dismiss a rape allegation just because you like the guy accused of the crime?
Hear hear. It's like everyone's saying, Hey I like it, I agree with it; must be great! I'm not sure one ever learns anything from agreement.
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evenharpier
09 June 2013 7:33pm
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498
Wow! Just Wow!
I am in awe of you.
THANK YOU!
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Cathy Henry
09 June 2013 7:34pm
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This is a low-level person who runs to China. Real-nice, Glen Greenwald.
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ardennespate
09 June 2013 7:36pm
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@Cathy Henry -
This is a low-level person who runs to China. Real-nice, Glen Greenwald.
Eh?
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msulzer
09 June 2013 7:40pm
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405
@Cathy Henry - Are you really incapable of understanding the issues involved in this?
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siff
09 June 2013 7:49pm
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@ardennespate - Her first and only comment.
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bedfont
09 June 2013 7:52pm
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@Cathy Henry - That you Dianne?
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Fuel
09 June 2013 8:02pm
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@Cathy Henry - You didn't listen to the interview. Do that now and listen to his explanation of why he chose Hong Kong. He's not done what he's done for China, he's done it for ordinary Americans.
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kushtika
09 June 2013 8:04pm
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@Cathy Henry - oh cathy, i pity your ignorance, but do not excuse it.
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marxmarv
09 June 2013 8:04pm
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@msulzer 09 June 2013 7:40pm.
Just another drive-by Abraxas profile. Move along, nothing to see here.
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skullaria
09 June 2013 8:13pm
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@Cathy Henry -
A low level person does not have access to rosters of intelligence agents.
------to everyone else----------
be wary of sock puppets trying to make it look like the majority are against this guy - think for yourselves no matter what.
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Charles Driver
09 June 2013 8:18pm
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@Cathy Henry - Ignore all those ignorant naysayers they don't understand law. A person can only be a whistleblower if the activity they are reporting is illegal. The government was not doing anything illegal, they had warrants and court approval to make all of the requests that they did.
All this fool did was expose, legal activities and then run and hide behind communist skirts, not giving one care about all the lives of people he may have put into danger because of this exposure.
His Karma is probably pretty jacked right now, wouldn't want to be him and he did me no favors.
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Christopher Zemp
09 June 2013 8:28pm
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@Charles Driver - You must've missed the part where he said he personally reviewed every document to make sure he was not putting anyone in danger.
It sounds to me like you would rather not know about the government spy program and instead would rather remain ignorant. Are you sacred of an informed electorate?
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Bezdomny
09 June 2013 8:30pm
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@Charles Driver - Perhaps you should read the story Charles:
"I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest," he said. "There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over, because harming people isn't my goal. Transparency is."
Glad to know you are perfectly at peace with the 4th amendment's virtual destruction. Some of us appreciate people who would like to still preserve what's left of the Republic, even if it virtually guarantees the destruction of their lives, both figuratively, and I fear in this case, literally.
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Sanford Sklansky
09 June 2013 8:38pm
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@Cathy Henry - Would you hang around?
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Kathy Harris Sexton
09 June 2013 8:40pm
This comment has been chosen by Guardian staff because it contributes to the debate
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@Charles Driver - Ever since the Nixon administration broke into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychoanalyst's office, the tactic of the US government has been to attack and demonize whistleblowers as a means of distracting attention from their own exposed wrongdoing and destroying the credibility of the messenger so that everyone tunes out the message. Please just spend a moment considering the options available to someone with access to numerous Top Secret documents. They could easily enrich themselves by selling those documents for huge sums of money to foreign intelligence services. They could seek to harm the US government by acting at the direction of a foreign adversary and covertly pass those secrets to them. They could gratuitously expose the identity of covert agents. None of the whistleblowers persecuted by the Obama administration as part of its unprecedented attack on whistleblowers has done any of that: not one of them. Nor have those who are responsible for these current disclosures. By your logic it could be argued that all surveillance laws should be kept secret in order to make it harder for adversaries to guess how we collect intelligence, but that's not how a democracy works. Legally and under the Constitution, the law that has been in place for over two hundred years (and not some law made up in some secret court) is that American citizens are supposed to have a say in the laws that govern them and no matter how noble the Justice Department's intentions are, Obama, nor any government official have the right to substitute their judgment for the judgment of the American people, no matter how balanced they may perceive their own. In the event that they have doubts that the American people will support a program they believe is necessary to national security, they are obligated to bring that program up for debate, not classify it and hope no one finds out.
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rrheard
09 June 2013 8:46pm
This comment has been chosen by Guardian staff because it contributes to the debate
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@Charles Driver -

The government was not doing anything illegal, they had warrants and court approval to make all of the requests that they did.
EPIC's letter to the key members of Congress set out precisely how wrong you are:

There is simply no precedent for the FISC to authorize domestic surveillance. As Justice Alito, writing for the Supreme Court in a case concerning the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, explained just a few months ago,

Congress enacted the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) to authorize and regulate certain governmental electronic surveillance of communications for foreign intelligence purposes. See 92 Stat. 1783, 50 U.S.C. §1801 et seq.; 1 D. Kris & J. Wilson, National Security Investigations & Prosecutions §§ 3.1, 3.7 (2d ed. 2012) (hereinafter Kris & Wilson).
In FISA, Congress authorized judges of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) to approve electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes if there is probable cause to believe that “the target of the electronic surveillance is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power,” and that each of the specific “facilities or places at which the electronic surveillance is directed is being used, or is about to be used, by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power.” §105(a)(3), 92 Stat. 1790; see §§105(b)(1)(A), (b)(1)(B), ibid.; 1 Kris & Wilson § 7:2, at 194-195; id., § 16:2, at 528-529. (emphasis added)8
With the Verizon Order, the FISC went beyond its legal authority when it sanctioned a program of domestic surveillance unrelated to the collection of foreign intelligence.
For thirty years the FISA required the government to provide specific, targeted requests aimed at agents of foreign powers and other non-U.S. persons before lawful surveillance was permissible.9 The FISA Amendments Act of 2008 ("FAA")10 replaced that system with one of broad authority and limited prohibitions on the interception and collection of communications involving U.S. persons.11
Please think about what you're saying. If you want to give up all your private information to the government voluntarily--feel free.
Me and many like me wish to keep our private lives, communications, and data private and I don't care if that makes you afraid you're more likely to be the victim of a "terrorist" attack that is statistically less probable than slipping in your bathtub and dying and/or being struck by lightning.
Try not being such a coward and sacrifice other's fundamental right to privacy so you can feel safe from the boogieman.
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RJSadler
09 June 2013 8:53pm
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@Charles Driver - When our government can secretly interpret laws how ever it wants we are left with no choice but to hope for people like this to come forward. And i see you dont give a damn about our constitutional rights. The constitution was written to protect people from the government doing things like it is doing now.
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tringo21
09 June 2013 8:59pm
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@Charles Driver - The fact that it is or might be legal is the problem. Don't you see that, or are you one of them?
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markbeckett
09 June 2013 9:34pm
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@Charles Driver - when is the marriage between you and Cathy?
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Adrian71
09 June 2013 9:34pm
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@Charles Driver - Just because something is legal, doesn't make it moral. Slavery was legal once.
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BobSoper
09 June 2013 9:50pm
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@Bezdomny - unfortunately sock puppets like "Charles Driver" and "Cathy Henry" will be coming out of the woodwork, trying to smear this incredibly brave and noble person. It's what our tax dollars are paying them for.
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Bertaboop
09 June 2013 9:59pm
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@Cathy Henry - Your perspective is extremely stunted. Big Brother will love you I suspect.
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john gotti
09 June 2013 9:59pm
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@Adrian71 - Even slavery was and is against the laws of man and nature, even if it is legalized by the government. It was also legal for the Germans to send Jews to the gas chambers. I suppose Charles Driver and Cathy would chastise anyone who resisted.
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LeDingue
09 June 2013 10:02pm
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@marxmarv 09 June 2013 8:04pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Just another drive-by Abraxas profile
["cathy henry" 3 posts and counting]
Abraxas Corporation a pubic company
We are dedicated to attracting, developing, and retaining the most talented minds in the national security community. Abraxas seeks a variety of fully cleared professionals.
So they only hire Scientologists then ;-)

;-)

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Weaven
09 June 2013 10:04pm
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@rrheard - Thank you for an excellent reply and links in your post, here.
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TheLibrarianApe
09 June 2013 10:04pm
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12
@Cathy Henry - What a truly base and odious comment.
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Cactusjack49
09 June 2013 10:19pm
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@rrheard - Excellent post, Thank YOU!
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jopestron
09 June 2013 10:52pm
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0
@Cathy Henry - YEH! Real nice......Glenn.....Greenwald. He ran to Hong China! Nice going. Letting some NSA officer run to Hong China! You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Hong China indeed!
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rrheard
09 June 2013 10:59pm
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@Cactusjack49 & Weaven:
You're welcome.
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TheClave
09 June 2013 11:20pm
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0
@Christopher Zemp - Ever heard of the expression "Need to know"? Its not the same as "Want to know".
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Romberry
10 June 2013 12:20am
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@Charles Driver - The Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land. No matter what law congress passes and the president signs, if that law violated the framework of limited powers granted to the government by the people via the Constitution of the United States, then the law and all actions under it are in fact illegal.
I submit that the laws authorizing the government to undertake these activities (and the secret interpretation of those laws used to justify these activities) are in direct violation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The Constitution is a restraint on government, and the government is pulling against those restraints. As I said earlier before on another forum today before Snowden's identity and reasoning were revealed:
I don’t know how something can be within the law when the law itself, at least as it’s interpreted and implemented, seems plainly outside of the limits imposed by the highest law, the Constitution of the United States. But forget that for a second…
(Senator) Feinstein’s statements that “The program is essentially walled off within the NSA. There are limited numbers of people who have access to it.” is of little comfort even if true. Walled off? Maybe so. But walls have a bad habit of being breached no matter how strong. What Feinstein is saying is that even if they have all this info, we just have to trust the people in government now to be angels. And not just that, we have to trust the people in government forevermore to be angels, to keep those walls in good repair, and to not breach them themselves in order to put all of this information to some no good use.
Imagine the security state wants a judge to rule a certain way, or to have a representative or senator to vote a certain way, or wants a president to push for a certain policy, or wants the CEO of a corporation to do or not do a certain thing and the security state has at its disposal a treasure trove of information that people in these positions would find embarrassing (or worse) if it were to come out. Maybe they’ve consorted with prostitutes. Maybe they scored a little blow while in office. Maybe they’ve had an affair, or cheated on a securities deal. Maybe they just habitually surf some really outrageous porn (The list of possibilities is endless.) Along the way they have left some form of tracks via telecommunications or digitally via the net. With this huge database of communications that covers not just the here and now but covers always and forever henceforth, why is that not a huge potential danger for blackmailing powerful people — even heads of state — into doing what is asked of them even if what is asked is wrong?
The Constitution sets limits. Feinstein is basically saying that the government of today, like all governments, does not want to work under the limits. Instead of limited power and limited information about citizens, they want limitless power and an end to privacy.

That walls can be breached has been illustrated well by Snowden. The dangers to liberty are apparent to anyone willing to see.
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master". - George Washington
"The makers of our Constitution undertook to secure conditions favorable to the pursuit of happiness. They recognized the significance of man's spiritual nature, of his feelings, and of his intellect. They knew that only a part of the pain, pleasure and satisfactions of life are to be found in material things. They sought to protect Americans in their beliefs, their thoughts, their emotions and their sensations. They conferred, as against the Government, the right to be let alone -- the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by civilized men. To protect that right, every unjustifiable intrusion by the Government upon the privacy of the individual, whatever the means employed, must be deemed a violation of the Fourth Amendment." - Justice Louis Brandeis, dissenting in 277 U.S. 438 Olmstead v. United States, June 4, 1928
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ersatzian
10 June 2013 12:24am
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@Bezdomny -
I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest," he said. "There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over, because harming people isn't my goal. Transparency is.
Not that I agree with Mr Driver, but most of you are just quoting the article at him. Even if he reads it, what happens if he doesn't think Mr Snow's telling the truth? And to be fair, how do we verify Mr Snow's account? Only he's talking, so we've got to believe him because he looks like a decent guy and he seems nice enough and we'd love to believe the government are screwing us over at every turn. I'm not accusing anybody of anything, but why are we supposed to take Mr Snow at his word and not Mr Driver or anybody else who isn't one hundred per cent comfortable with what happened? It sounds a bit like everyone's thinking, "I like him, I agree with what he did; the cause must be just!" I guess it's hard to talk about this without taking sides. Shame.
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Lydmari
09 June 2013 7:34pm
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This is exhilarating.
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whichone
09 June 2013 8:00pm
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@Lydmari - it certainly is and let's hope that he, like Manning ,sets an example for many more to follow.
Thank you and all the best of luck.
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JonDon
09 June 2013 7:34pm
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345
Noble soul!
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Matt Cooper
09 June 2013 7:35pm
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365
Apparently, the US is gearing up to begin legal proceedings against any American citizen involved in these leaks so good luck! You did a very brave thing!
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john gotti
09 June 2013 10:00pm
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@Matt Cooper - If I'm on the jury, they will be found not guilty or at least a hung jury.
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tomedinburgh
09 June 2013 10:44pm
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@Matt Cooper -
The guy stole secret information disclosed some of it at a time which was very convenient to China and then fled to Hong Kong. Quite possibly he took more information than the stuff which was disclosed to the media.
He has broken a lot of laws and he should be prosecuted. Presuming that it is altruistic whistle-blowing is naive.
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ersatzian
09 June 2013 11:04pm
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@john gotti -
If I'm on the jury, they will be found not guilty or at least a hung jury.
Didn't you die of throat cancer in jail back in 2002?
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Matt Cooper
10 June 2013 12:01am
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@tomedinburgh - This guy wasn't some deadbeat. He had a well paying job, family and girlfriend. The Chinese can't offer him two of those three things. A one time, well publicised defection with a single cache of documents isn't (and probably never has been) a boon to intelligence agencies. They like to have people stuck in for the long haul.
The above, and his documented donations to Ron Paul, leads me to think he's a hardcore libertarian and truly believes in what he's doing. I probably would not agree with this guy on lots of issues but this is a personal sacrifice on a level unheard-of in recent times. A sacrifice just so people can have at least some inkling of the paranoia and fear that's eating away at the heart of most western governments, and feasting on their own citizen's personal liberties.
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ardennespate
09 June 2013 7:36pm
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328
Good luck and best wishes, Edward - regrettably, I really think you'll need 'em...
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DerDeutsche
09 June 2013 7:36pm
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359
Poor guy will feel the Nobel Peace Prize laureate's wrath. No one shows a "nice" politician's real face and remains unpunished.
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CC0564
09 June 2013 10:14pm
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@DerDeutsche -
Putin (another nice politician who knows a thing or two about spying) could offer him a Russian passport. Just to annoy the US. Like he did with Depardieu, just to annoy Hollande.
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Toby Rankin
09 June 2013 7:37pm
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252
He's a brave fella!
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Moon1874
09 June 2013 7:38pm
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336
Just goes to prove that, when you want to :
"Yes, you can!"
Thank you so much, for your courage and your faith.
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msulzer
09 June 2013 7:38pm
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217
Wow! Now there is person to loo up to. Thank you for all that you have done.
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Pedinska
10 June 2013 12:07am
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@msulzer 09 June 2013 7:38pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
Now there is person to loo up to.
I'm sure you meant to put a 'k' on the end there, but even so, I found myself saying, "Yeah, it might be a bit embarrassing at first, but it would be superficial of me to let that get in the way of "loo'ing up to" someone as courageous as this guy. Imagine the discussion! ;-}
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Trofonios
09 June 2013 7:38pm
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76
Drone attack coming up?
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Andy12345
09 June 2013 8:09pm
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@Trofonios - Yes, because China will be A-OK with a drone strike on a Hong Kong hotel or anywhere on their territory for that matter.
No chance. It would lead to a war that nobody would want.
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iamnotwise
09 June 2013 8:17pm
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96
@Andy12345 - Quite. It would be a first for the US government to pick on someone their own size.
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Doosh79
09 June 2013 9:32pm
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@Trofonios 09 June 2013 7:38pm. Get cifFix for Chrome.
No need for a drone, they could copy the Russians and do him Litvinenko style.
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exturpicausa
09 June 2013 7:39pm
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497
This man is a hero, intelligent and articulate, principled.
I can only take my hat off, this man deserves accolades, not punishment.
We're behind you Ed!
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Charles Driver
09 June 2013 8:20pm
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11
@exturpicausa - Speak only for yourself
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Sadie May
09 June 2013 8:34pm
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143
@Charles Driver - Pretty sure exturpicausa speaks for a multitude in this matter.
Edward Snowden's courage and sacrifice cannot be overstated.
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anagama
09 June 2013 8:44pm
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118
@Charles Driver -
You can speak for the pigs. For every rational and patriotic American however, Snowden is a hero and national treasure.
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Adrian71
09 June 2013 9:37pm
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51
@Charles Driver - Believe me, you do speak only for yourself here. How anyone could defend what the U.S. government is doing is beyond the imagination.
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Weaven
09 June 2013 10:07pm
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12
@Charles Driver - Look up the word "we"
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ersatzian
09 June 2013 11:02pm
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1
@anagama -
You can speak for the pigs. For every rational and patriotic American[,] however, Snowden is a hero and national treasure.
I resent this. I think I am reasonably rational and reasonably patriotic, yet it seems a decision has already been made: because I don't support Mr Snowden, I am at best a pig. To be honest, I have yet to form an opinion on the issue and I don't really want to. I think it's against the spirit of Constitution—whatever that may be—for the NSA to go tapping into a lot of people's phones, but at the same time, I was not naïve enough to think that my government didn't do it. Speaking for myself, and only myself, I don't actually mind agents listening in on my conversations; I don't have anything to hide or to be ashamed of. If they want to undergo the awkwardness of me having phone sex with so-and-so, that's their business. However, I understand and sympathize that this ambivalence over privacy rights is not a popular (or progressive) view. That's fine too; we're all entitled to an opinion, so anagama let me have mine before you go calling names. Thank you.
(As a bit of an aside, I don't understand why the government would worry about Mr Snowden. Let him come back into the country, establish he hasn't sold any of the information, fire him, and let him be. Same thing with Mr Manning. Just give him his dishonorable discharge and let it go. Let them thrive and be forgotten in civilian life.)
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sayiloveuoften
09 June 2013 11:44pm
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1
@anagama -
that was kind of funny... "you can speak for the pigs.." i am imagining...pigs on a farm finding themselves not to happy to have to talk to him

i can hear the pigs say to him..." dear Charles, you've got problems ... "
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NeilPeel
09 June 2013 7:39pm
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392
He needs legal and personal protection as soon as possible..
'The media' need to think very carefully about any smear campaigns that might be in the pipeline against him...
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guydenning
09 June 2013 7:46pm
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93
@NeilPeel 09 June 2013 7:39pm. Get cifFix for Chrome.
The media' need to think very carefully about any smear campaigns that might be in the pipeline against him
Sadly, I'm sure there'll be a queue of the usual suspects ready to pass on any old crap that the NSA cook up.
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Addicks123
09 June 2013 7:57pm
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156
@NeilPeel - He needs legal and personal protection as soon as possible..
He's a brave man, but perhaps being hidden in plain sight like this is his best protection.
The CIA would find out who leaked this information sooner or later and if he was still unknown "dealing" with him would be a lot easier.
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StrawBear
09 June 2013 9:29pm
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10
@NeilPeel -
'The media' need to think very carefully about any smear campaigns that might be in the pipeline against him...
I hope they do act responsibly. It's not out of the question that they'll just run with whatever comes up.
It'd be nice to see some maturity from the papers over what happens next.
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sayiloveuoften
09 June 2013 11:45pm
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@Addicks123 - Agreeing with you 100%.
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triteplanman
09 June 2013 7:40pm
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172
Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
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NeilPeel
09 June 2013 7:40pm
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55
He needs legal and personal protection as soon as possible..
'The media' need to think very carefully about any smear campaigns that might be in the pipeline against him...
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Resistance
09 June 2013 7:40pm
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165
Wow, amazing, really brave! I am not sure though that Hong Kong, or anywhere else, is safe for him. Sadly, the US is so powerful that their "law" reaches pretty much everywhere in the world.
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Andy12345
09 June 2013 8:12pm
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53
@Resistance - There are probably worse choices than Hong Kong, they're unlikely to arrest and deport him for embarrassing the US.
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skullaria
09 June 2013 8:16pm
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18
@Resistance - Scary to think that any tyranny the US decides to impose could/would as well.
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ersatzian
09 June 2013 10:49pm
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1
@Andy12345 -
There are probably worse choices than Hong Kong, they're unlikely to arrest and deport him for embarrassing the US.
Nah, he'd fit right in. He looks like every other pasty white expat kid working for Merrill Lynch in Central.
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Laura9999
09 June 2013 7:41pm
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226
I can't be anything other than proud of you. Good luck. I hop your family is as proud.
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exturpicausa
09 June 2013 7:41pm
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COIMMENTS

225
What can we do to help Ed?
#wegotyourback
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Charles Driver
09 June 2013 8:21pm
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@exturpicausa - speak for yourself only, I don't have "ed"s back.
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admin_pornrev: Site Admin; Posts: 832; Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind the NSA surveillanc

by admin_pornrev » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:21 pm

COMMENTS

anagama
09 June 2013 8:46pm
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159
@Charles Driver -
And that's sad, considering he's got yours.
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markbeckett
09 June 2013 8:56pm
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47
@Charles Driver -
I imagine you would wish to shoot mister Snowden in the back judging by your terse and content free comment.
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radicalchange
09 June 2013 9:12pm
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85
@Charles Driver -
@exturpicausa - speak for yourself only, I don't have "ed"s back.
Nor do you have Edward's principles, intelligence, courage, foresight or eloquence.
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Bertaboop
09 June 2013 10:02pm
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5
@Charles Driver - Welcome to the world of the sheeple libtards that control this shit.
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hieros
09 June 2013 10:25pm
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8
@Charles Driver -
one can only imagine what kind of a hole you crawled out of
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sayiloveuoften
09 June 2013 11:47pm
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1
@exturpicausa - yes, WHAT can we do to help ?
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DeadlyInArms
09 June 2013 7:41pm
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149
Hmm, now Manning has competition for the Nobel peace prize.
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uhuznaa
09 June 2013 7:57pm
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@DeadlyInArms - Well, after Obama picking that price up I hope he won't. And Manning neither.
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anagama
09 June 2013 8:48pm
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32
@DeadlyInArms -
I think you have to personally be responsible for the deaths of at least 1000 people before you can be considered for a Nobel Peace Prize. I doubt Snowden or Manning qualify.
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markbeckett
09 June 2013 8:57pm
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22
@DeadlyInArms -
they could always reclaim the one given in error to Pres. Obomber.
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Bernd Paysan
09 June 2013 11:42pm
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1
@uhuznaa - The price had lost it's value when Henry Kissinger got it. For allegedly making peace with Vietnam. Kissinger killed still several millions in that area afterwards...
Obama is just good on PR, something George W. Bush was bad at. Bush's PR method was smear, Obama's is positive - if possible (there's a lot of smear against Assange). The thing behind is still the same. It's a big tyranny. And there is only one party with two right wings.
We need way more heroes like Snowden, Manning, and Assange. And I don't want to see him mortally wounded and have all his entrails spilled over the place like Yossarian's Snowden.
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shenebraskan
09 June 2013 7:42pm
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215
This is absolutely amazing. Stunning and brave, from all concerned.
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Haigin88
09 June 2013 7:42pm
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29
"...Snowden is a member of Yossarian's flight during a mission, and acts as catalyst for the fundamental change in Yossarian's mentality and outlook..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yossarian#Snowden
We're Joseph Heller's Yossarian, hopefully.
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StrawMan411
09 June 2013 8:59pm
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3
@Haigin88 - Right-o, mate. "Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?": http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... teryear%3F
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Scurra
09 June 2013 7:42pm
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287
Courage under fire indeed.
To the Guardian - just make sure you continue to follow his story so that we don't forget.
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donkeytale
09 June 2013 7:42pm
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118
Bravo, sir
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Fauxbama
09 June 2013 7:42pm
This comment has been chosen by Guardian staff because it contributes to the debate
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300
From his Q&A:
Q: Washington-based foreign affairs analyst Steve Clemons said he overheard at the capital's Dulles airport four men discussing an intelligence conference they had just attended. Speaking about the leaks, one of them said, according to Clemons, that both the reporter and leaker should be "disappeared". How do you feel about that?
A: "Someone responded to the story said 'real spies do not speak like that'. Well, I am a spy and that is how they talk. Whenever we had a debate in the office on how to handle crimes, they do not defend due process – they defend decisive action. They say it is better to kick someone out of a plane than let these people have a day in court. It is an authoritarian mindset in general."
THAT is precisely why these authoritarians have to be defeated. America CAN NOT survive as a free nation otherwise.
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badcat
09 June 2013 9:10pm
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19
@Fauxbama - Yep. It's George W. Bush-style thuggery, still flourishing throughout this poor country. As soon as Obama started appointing Republicans, and Bush-alums in particular, we knew all that work we'd put in for an apparently cosmopolitan & rule-of-law-respecting apparent-progressive was for naught.
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jestanley
09 June 2013 7:42pm
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121
Thank you.
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TVwriter
09 June 2013 7:43pm
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50
Brave indeed.
I'm curious as to why he's revealed himself or did he assume it was only a matter of time?
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Corrections
09 June 2013 7:47pm
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24
@TVwriter -
Or the Chinese government might whisk him away for questioning, viewing him as a useful source of information.
iow, he's likely hoping the U.S. will offer him immunity rather than letting China interrogate him.
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mrtnjms
09 June 2013 9:00pm
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20
@TVwriter - perhaps for the reasons stated in the article.
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Jawja100
09 June 2013 9:33pm
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25
@TVwriter - To try to avoid being "disappeared". The world is watching.
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TVwriter
09 June 2013 10:03pm
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5
@mrtnjms - Yes. I think I was so gobsmacked I didn't read it properly.
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Corrections
09 June 2013 7:43pm
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He'll probably be okay until his money runs out. Wonder what bank he has it in, or if he converted everything to cash.
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DismantleTrident
09 June 2013 8:15pm
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14
@Corrections - Bitcoins... not easy to trace

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StrawBear
09 June 2013 9:17pm
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9
@DismantleTrident - Easier to trace now than they were a month ago, apparently.
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BobSoper
09 June 2013 9:57pm
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27
@Corrections - maybe the Guardian can set up a fund for Mr. Snowden so that those who wish to support him financially can pitch in. I would happily contribute.
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ganador
09 June 2013 7:43pm
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111
Bravo, Edward!
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guydenning
09 June 2013 7:43pm
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108
You can hear the sound of skeletons being stuffed in closets by the NSA as we type.
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Seriatim
09 June 2013 11:40pm
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0
@guydenning -
And I can hear the sound of dozens of fledgling newly inspired budding whistleblowers opening the closets and dragging them out ...
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TheIneffableSwede
09 June 2013 7:43pm
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292
Thank you, Mr. Snowden. You're a brave man and a hero in my eyes.
I'm sorry for what the American Empire is going to do to you. They will torment you and the experience will be so hellish you will wonder if it was all worth it.
Are there enough patriotic Americans left to ensure that this brave man's sacrifice is not in vain? Or will you just let him twist in the noose the way you have done with Bradley Manning?
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futurehuman
09 June 2013 10:50pm
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16
@TheIneffableSwede -
Very well said. We can have hope that great good can still come out of the apparently omnipotent evil America. The historic acts of Mr. Snowden and Mr. Manning proves the dialectical law of the “unity of the Opposites” – the notion that opposites reside at the very element of a thing or a process in both unity and opposition at the same time.
The greatness of the noble acts of these two young men can be judged in comparison and in contrast to the immense evilness of America as the ruthless leader of decadent world monopoly capitalism. No matter what is their fate, they have assured their place (for all times to come), as the shining stars of humanity and others will follow.
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thatemmachick
09 June 2013 7:43pm
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156
I really hope he stays safe.
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Casgrave
09 June 2013 7:43pm
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130
Admirable.
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citizenKHAN
09 June 2013 7:44pm
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79
at last there is one..
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jezmos
09 June 2013 7:44pm
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229
What this kid has done makes him a true patriot. Hopefully this scandal will ignite a debate across the west about where the line must be drawn between (as Glenn said yesterday) PUBLIC government and PRIVATE individuals.
Despite what has occurred over the past 10 years I refuse not to be optimistic and that's mainly thanks to brave people like Glenn Greenwald and Edward Snowden.
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Ikonoclast
09 June 2013 7:44pm
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118
Good lad
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AngelaTC
09 June 2013 7:44pm
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158
Thank you. You're a patriot.
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Bigchin
09 June 2013 7:45pm
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143
...'whistle-blower' ? I'm gonna rename 'em -
'citizens who prevent governments doing exactly as they like', exposers.
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TheIneffableSwede
09 June 2013 7:46pm
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192
@Bigchin - How about "patriots". That's what they are. These are people who read the Constitution and actually believe in its words.
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Bigchin
09 June 2013 7:51pm
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77
@TheIneffableSwede -
...yeah, I'll go with that, for they truly are.
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LeDingue
09 June 2013 10:24pm
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10
@TheIneffableSwede 09 June 2013 7:46pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
people who read the Constitution and actually believe in its words
The DHS has informed all police forces that this constitues reason for submitting a Suspicious Activity Report.
That is what the US has been reduced to.
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shekissesfrogs
09 June 2013 11:04pm
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3
@TheIneffableSwede - 'patriot' has an association with ugly nationalism, the feeling that your country is the best in the world simply because you were born into it. It's a replacement for tribal identity, but the loyalty or care is not necessarily returned. Snowden has humanistic principles.
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lostrobot2001
09 June 2013 7:45pm
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108
A brave man.
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TheIneffableSwede
09 June 2013 7:45pm
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244
It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare.-- Mark Twain
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MrEnnui
09 June 2013 8:09pm
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67
@TheIneffableSwede - Moral courage requires thought, physical usually a lack thereof
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Pedinska
10 June 2013 12:22am
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0
@TheIneffableSwede 09 June 2013 7:45pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
From what I've read, he's shown both.
Thanks for that quote.
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DuErJournalist
09 June 2013 7:45pm
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102
More power to you. Thank you.
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Baccalieri
09 June 2013 7:45pm
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74
Good luck,.
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grubert
09 June 2013 7:46pm
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142
can't imagine a braver thing to do. a name for the history books. i hope it proves worth it.
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PrettyHipsMcGee
09 June 2013 7:46pm
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People are odd. The government enforces speech laws to prevent unpopular speech and there's a collective yawn. The government taxes workers at rates often in excess of 50% and another collective yawn. The US' taxation enforcers, the IRS are used to stifle the President's opponents and the lefties don't care.
But monitor the Internet! That's one bridge too far.
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marxmarv
09 June 2013 8:01pm
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@PrettyHipsMcGee 09 June 2013 7:46pm.
Today's Democrats would be offended that you're calling them lefties. As a leftie, I'm offended.
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anagama
09 June 2013 8:56pm
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28
@marxmarv -
Absolutely. I get so sick of Democrats being described as liberals. Democrats are liberals in the same way that apples are rocks ... i.e., there is no correspondence. As for the DNC being the New GOP however ... I can totally see that.
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StrawBear
09 June 2013 9:18pm
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14
@anagama - A third party really is needed.
One out of the influence of lobbyists and who can stand up for real Americans.
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LeDingue
09 June 2013 10:28pm
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11
@StrawBear 09 June 2013 9:18pm. Get cifFix for Firefox.
A third party really is needed.
One out of the influence of lobbyists and who can stand up for real Americans.
I'm sure the NSA has detailed smear files prepared for any likely canditates, so they can be suppressed or controlled.
That's what all this spying is for: protecting the 1% staus quo
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JinTexas
09 June 2013 7:46pm
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226
Glenn you have accomplished more in a few months than CNN has in all it's pathetic existence. You have become the greatest journalist ever!
What a hero Edward Snowden is!
If this doesn't wake up our media and our congress then better leave America while you still can.
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TheIneffableSwede
09 June 2013 7:48pm
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83
@JinTexas - What will you do when the US grabs Edward Snowden and charges him with treason, the way they've done with Manning? Will you do something to stop them or just hide in the shadows, the way everybody else does?
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JinTexas
09 June 2013 7:52pm
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@TheIneffableSwede - Those are good questions but the sad truth is that other than writing our idiot elected representatives there's not much we can do. Americans don't have much influence over the government unless EVERYBODY gets outraged and even then my guess would be that the government would just ignore us.
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kushtika
09 June 2013 8:13pm
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@JinTexas - there are ways......
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Bertaboop
09 June 2013 10:12pm
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@JinTexas - That is a sad but true fact. Revolution is out of the question at least in the traditional sense.
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PleaseTurnLeft
09 June 2013 10:17pm
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@JinTexas - What is the point of the constitutional right to carry firearms then?
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stupidamerican
09 June 2013 11:14pm
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@PleaseTurnLeft - Exactly.
The people who scream the most about needing to be armed to the hilt in order to fight tyranny have exactly the government they fear. Yet, they do nothing.
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shekissesfrogs
09 June 2013 11:26pm
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@JinTexas - ... other than writing our idiot elected representatives there's not much we can do

Failure of imagination.
There is a lot we could do, but the internet is no longer a place to discuss ideas outside of calling for politically correct, cargo cultish protests that do not shut down commerce, or streets or embarrass PC liberals.
Here's an idea. Everyone could send their thoughts through snail mail, a dozen or so postcards and letters to each of their reps and senators. Overload their mail system and help out the post office which the neo-liberals are trying privatize.
Send your reps and senators faxes. Even if they throw them all away they have to read and sort through them for other business.
In muslim countries, they burn tires to shut streets. In Thailand protestors sat in on the airport and shut it down.
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lightacandle
09 June 2013 7:46pm
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As there seems to be no-one watching the watchers, moreso when they operate in a way that the public would not accept, it has to be down to whistleblowers to enable us to know what we should know. Well done that man.
"He predicts the government will launch an investigation and "say I have broken the Espionage Act and helped our enemies...."
But who is the enemy here - a government who is acting against the will of the people. The enemy within I would say. That is what should be questioned now. Who is the enemy? Not those acting in the interests of the people but rather those within government who are not. Time we sought out the real 'enemy'of the will of the people, and it is not those such as Edward Snowden, far from it.
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